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Tuesday, April 10, 2012

Just Who Is This, Girls??????????????


              Indeed, darlings!!!!!!!  Just who is the young girl in the above photo?  I have to confess
I was stunned when I found out.

               For starters, she is no longer among the Living.  She would have been around my age
if alive today, but she passed away tragically in 1976, at the age of 21.  I imagine the above
photo is not much removed from the time of her death.

                 The young woman in the above photo would also qualify by my definition for the title
of Hollywood's Most Unhappy Celebrity Child.

                  She is.....was.....Mary Jennifer Selznick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                  Now, if some of those names sound familiar to some of my girls, well, they damn well should!
Miss Selznick was the daughter--the only child--of film producer David O. Selznick, and his wife, actress
Jennifer Jones.  And while Brooke Hayward brilliantly chronicled the pitfalls of being a celebrity's child in "Haywire" (and her parents were no slouches, being the producer Leland Hayward and the actress Margaret Sullavan) Mary had a much tougher road to haul.  Her parents were not just celebrities; they were icons.  Her father happened to produce what was the most important film of its day, a little something we still all know and love called "Gone With The Wind;" her mother was one of the most beautiful women to appear on camera, memorable for her stunning performance in "The Song Of Bernadette" (for which she won the Academy Award as Best Actress of 1943) not to mention the murderous, half-breed Indian girl, Pearl Chavez (who, the publicity said, was "built by the Devil to drive men crazy!") in "Duel In The Sun," as well as the ethereal ghost in the haunting "Portrait Of Jennie.  With such a gene pool, Mary's pedigree was extraordinary, and  she might very well have attained a youthful start very much like her almost counterpart onstage, Susan Strasberg.

                 But, along with this pedigree, Mary, I believe, also inherited some of the worst aspects of her parents' gene pool, which did not work in her favor.  David O. Selznick was a bundle of nerves, who gulped pills constantly on every set he worked on. I am surprised he and Judy Garland never met up at the same rehab clinic at least once.  He was strongly addicted to gambling, losing so much money that he had to sell off his share of profits in GWTW, and this habit was a constant source of anxiety to Jennifer Jones.  And she had her problems, too.  As Phyllis Isley, in Oklahoma, she had been Daddy's girl, and this drew her to older and more powerful men.  This need for protection, for emotional security, may be one reason why her short lived marriage to the extremely handsome, vulnerable, unstable yet gifted actor, Robert Walker, did not work out.  Common history blames Jennifer for abandoning him for career advancement via Selznick, and while it cannot be denied he did wonders for her, what I have read has led me to suspect more.  For one thing, even after the divorce, Jennifer never denied Walker access to his sons.  For another, it has been suggested that Walker's volatility sometimes erupted into physical attacks on Jennifer, which, Selznick or not,  would have been something she would have wanted to get she and the boys away from.  There are two sides to every story, darlings!!!!!!!!  In addition, Jennifer was plagued with anxiety and insecurity--about her acting, her own self-worth.  She needed strong direction to manage a performance, and she was highly sensitive when those performances came in for criticism.  Several years after Selznick's death, in her late 40s, she was found wandering on a beach, having ingested a considerable amount of sleeping pills, in an attempt at suicide.  Several years later, she married the philanthropist/art dealer, Norton Simon, who, ironically, had lost one of his children to suicide, as Jennifer Jones would eventually also.

               It seems Mary Jennifer had trouble all her life.  Measured against her mother, she never felt as attractive; the surprise is, the picture I have used shows a young woman a good deal more attractive than I had at first thought.  But, girls, next to Jennifer Jones, who among us would look as good? Liz Taylor in her day, maybe, but that is an extraordinary exception. 

                 Besides which, there was always mother-daughter friction between Mary and her mother; and before she turned twenty one she had survived a suicide attempt, an abortion, and a stint in a psychiatric ward.  Mary was on fragile ground.

                   So, with her lineage, she decided to make a foray into acting, coming to New York for
a time, and studying with Uta Hagen at the HB Studio.  It did not seem like Mary had the stuff her
mother did.

                    Around this same time, in May of 1976, Phil Isley, father of Jennifer Jones (who was christened Phyllis Isley, after him) was dying of cancer, at 83.   His actress daughter was with him in the hospital, when, on May 11, the day after what would have been Selznick's 74th birthday, had he lived, came word that Mary Jennifer had been found dead.  Apparently, she had had some kind of emotional crash (and she was said to have substance abuse problems as well) and proceeded to the tallest building in the Brentwood area--10701 Wilshire Boulevard.  A locale, ironically, plainly visible from the window of her psychiatrist's office.  There, tragically, Mary Jennifer chose death, jumping off the roof.

                      Whatever may be said about Jennifer Jones, it cannot be denied that for whatever she got--stardom, wealth, security, she paid a high price for it, and then some.  I guess my recent viewing of 'Bernadette' made me think of Jones, who has now been gone for over two years, and to wonder about Mary Jennifer, who, again, were she here now, would be about my age.

                         Girls, I promise to find something more cheerful to write about in the near future.  Don't worry; I am not going from this, to Sylvia Plath.  That would be cause for getting out the razor blades.  Mary Jennifer Selznick was not the first celebrity child to commit suicide, and, sadly, she will not be the last. But of all the stories, hers to me seems the saddest.

                           She may not have been her mother. But she had a Future!!!!!!!!!

                           As do all my girls out there, loves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



112 comments:

HarlowFan said...

Her relationship with her daughter sounds like the plot of one of Jennifer's last films:Angel Angel Down We Go. The daughter in that movie felt she wasn't as pretty or accomplished as her mother Jennifer!

The Raving Queen said...

I have heard about that film for years, and have never seen it. I sort want to, and don't. I have read--correct me, if I am wrong--that Jones' character in the movie does porno films. I am sure this is only alluded to, but, when you look at the bulk of Jones' work, this does not stand with the rest.
Even the "Farewell To Arms" remake had to have been better!

HarlowFan said...

Oh the movie is horrendous! Along with The Idol, in which she co-starred with Michael Parks,this is the worst crap she ever did. She even sleeps with her daughter's dirtbag boyfriend. At least The Towering Inferno had SOME redeeming qualities!

SuzyQ2 said...

I was room-mates w/Jennifer Selznick (She went by the name Jennifer then) when I was 15 at a boarding school in Danville, California. She introduced herself & proclaimed: "My mother is Jennifer Jones & my father is David O. Selznick."

I didn't know who either of them were (grew up w/out even a TV) so I just answered w/my parents' names!

Jennifer was a very "clean" liver--vegetarian, no drinking, no smoking or drugs or sex (which pretty much everyone else did at this high school as it was a very "progressive" high school w/only a couple hundred students at the most). We were called "the hippies on the hill."

I asked for a room-mate change w/in a month or so as Jennifer was very standoffish, quiet & uninvolved w/people. I don't think she grew up w/"regular" friends & didn't know how to interact w/adolescents living in a group experience of a dorm.

I had heard that she jumped out of the window under the influence of LSD...

Unfortunately, several people from this school had problems w/drugs & had tragic deaths way too young.

Unknown said...

I can say this now as all parties are passed away. I worked for Jennifer Jones, then to me was known as "Mrs. Simon" and her industrialist husband Norton Simon. It was my first job out of college in 1989. I actually lived with them in the Beverly Hills Hotel. Wow I can talk a lot about this. I once drove Mrs. Simon (aka Jennifer Jones) to Glendale where her daughter, along with her father and Jennifer's ex husband David O'Selznik are laid to rest at Forest Lawn cemetery. It was a bit of a drive from Beverly Hills. Not a word was spoken during that car ride and it was sad for me to see a mother bring flowers to her dead daughter's grave.

The Raving Queen said...

Now, that is very impressive and fascinating. I think the silence says a lot about how both deaths effected Jennifer Jones.

And poor Mary. When your mother is one of the most beautiful and talented people to grace the screen, and she inherits Daddy's looks, rather than his business acumen!

The whole thing was sad!

Unknown said...

Yes it was an interesting experience that I am comfortable sharing b/c all the parties are deceased. Yesterday I was reminded of JJ and I was playing on the internet and found your blog. Mary wasn't too bad looking, that photo of her in the bikini is pretty good (and this is before photoshop). JJ had a pretty photo of Mary on her nightstand. So it wasn't like she forgot her daughter. Paul Newman's son committed suicide, Michael Douglas' son is in PRISON for drugs. I live in LA and I can tell you first hand it is the parents with poor upbringing that is a major cause of their messed up kids. They have too much time, too much money, too much access to drugs, they don't have to work, etc. Mary was 21 years old when she jumped off a building in Westwood (LA). Gloria Vanderbuilt had 2 sons. One is Anderson Cooper of CNN, and his brother who not only committed suicide, but did so IN FRONT OF HIS MOTHER jumping off her balcony while she was watching. I last saw Mrs. Simon a few years before she passed along with her son Robert Walker jr. in Norton Simon's and Jennifer Jones' favorite restaurant in Santa Monica. She was in terrific spirits and very happy. I never saw her smile ONCE when I worked for her. But she was free from the head games and conflicts of Mr. Simon (as he passed in 1993).

Unknown said...

http://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-jennifer-jones18-2009dec18-story.html#page=1

Unknown said...

http://projects.latimes.com/hollywood/star-walk/jennifer-jones/

Unknown said...

http://www.latimes.com/world/la-et-jones-appreciation18-2009dec18-story.html

Unknown said...

Wow, "Unknown," you seem to have a lot of insight and stories of old Hollywood. How fascinating. I would love to sit down with you over coffee and chat for a while.

Esme St. Clair said...

I've gotta disagree with you as far as Jones's looks. She looked like Julie Nixon who, since your copping to being the same age as I am, I assume you remember. Nowhere close to Liz Taylor. Incidentally, Jones is supposed to be the prototype for a character in one of Jackie Susann's books. The portrayal isn't very flattering, but it does provide ONE explanation as to why she got Selznick's attention so quickly (ahem).

The Raving Queen said...


Now, you have made an interesting comment. Julie Nixon? I can actually see that, though I never, till now, thought so. But I agree. Though Jones was prettier.

As for a character in one of Sussann's bboks, can you tell me who, and which one? I have read all of them, and while I recognized many, Jones never crossed my mind!

Very interesting!

Unknown said...

I looked up Julie Nixon, good call she sort of does look like JJ. BTW I worked for Jennifer Jones when she was married to Norton Simon, so I have very personal insight. Yes what Jacquline Susann book? Can't be valley of the dolls. JJ got O'Selnik's attention bc O'Selzik was a fat ugly guy and JJ was young and pretty. It's that simple.

The Raving Queen said...


I agree with you about Selznick; he was not a looker. I read somewhere
Marleen Dietrich once said he would be the last man in Hollywood she
would sleep with. And I too would like to know what Susann book. You
are right; definitely NOT 'Valley.'

Unknown said...

Jennifer Jones was not a great beauty, not by any measure; just because your famous doesn't make you gorgeous. But she was a good actress and lucked out with some great roles with strong leading men. Judging from the photo, her daughter Jennifer was clearly a pretty young woman who was unfairly compared to her mother. Being a child of self centered celebrity has to be rough; your mother/father isn't around much, he/she is almost never married to just one person in his/her lifetime; as a result the child is emotionally neglected, confused, feels insignificant and possibly even unwanted. Sadly Jennifer is just one of long list of celebrity children that have killed themselves for these very same reasons. By contrast, most of us ordinary folk born during the babyboom had the opposite experience; mothers that were 100% committed to us and put their own lives and ambitions on the back burner just to ensure that we had a better life than they had. My family didn't have much money, quite the opposite, but boy was my childhood wonderful, I'd go back in a heartbeat.

The Raving Queen said...


I think Jennifer Jones was stunning, and a great beauty. I am with you,
when it comes to childhood; I yearn for its innocence and security too.
Not so adolescence. It was tragic her daughter could not find a balnce,as I agree she was most likely compared unfairly to her mother. Jones' story overall is one of the best examples of the idea of fame coming with a price!

I'm Outraged! said...

That photo was taken by Peter Sellers and was part of his 'daughters of the stars' contribution to the December 1972 edition of UK Vogue.
http://ciaovogue.blogspot.com.au/2011/01/december-1972-uk-vogue.html

The Raving Queen said...

Now that is interesting. I never knew that,
nor had I seen the photo till now. Thanks
for sharing!

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Raving Queen said...

Thanks so much. I wrote this awhile ago.
It is haunting.

Bri_Jms said...

I still remember the news story on the daughter, she jumped from the 20th floor, and it took over a month to figure out who she was. had to be pretty awful sight!

The Raving Queen said...

Oh, my God! I did not know that part of the story.
I was in college when it happened, so it slipped my
memory. It was tragic enough, but with your information
even more so! Thanks for sharing!

Julie said...

This conversation is so interesting! I agree about sitting down with "Unknown" over coffee! Haha--What else do you know/remember about old Hollywood?

The Raving Queen said...


Make that two for coffee, darling!!!!!!!!!!!!

lala said...

jennifer jones wasn't all that great. she sounded like she had marbles in her mouth most of the time and her looks were average.

The Raving Queen said...


What would you know, darling????????????????

movielover said...

'West Of Eden' by Jean Stein is a good source of information about Jennifer Jones' life----- one thing is for sure, it was never boring.

The Raving Queen said...


I happen to have that book in my pile of To Be Read.
Sounds like you have rad it, and that it is worth it!
Thanks for letting me know!

jordansmells said...

22nd story building, not 20th.

Also look into her links with the Manson family.

The Raving Queen said...


Mr. Everton,

I just re-read my post,
and nowhere do I mention how
many stories the building had.
Had I said twenty, I would have
corrected it, as you seem to know
something about this.

Links with the Manson family?
I will look into it. I never
heard of this before. How do
you know?

Thanks for commenting!

Sweet Serenity said...

Never heard Manson family connection. Please share source. Especially speaking about someone who isn't alive. Mary-Rip.

Sweet Serenity said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

Unknown is back. Sorry for the delay! Sure, anytime for cafe. I live in Los Angeles. I was fortunate to have had some interesting jobs that gave me somewhat of a birds eye view and meeting interesting people in the Hollywood Los Angeles scene.

Long before working for Norton Simon and Jennifer Jones while in college I valet parked at "The Daisy" which was a Private Nightclub on Rodeo Drive. Restaurant by day, Private Club by night. Celebrities, wealthy businessmen, a few Saudi "Princes" and Iranians that were the wealthy powerful friends of The Shah that got out unscathed taking their fortunes with them sinking it into Beverly Hills Real Estate. That was the beginning of the transformation of Beverly Hills becoming very "Persian".


I even parked OJ Simpson's car many times. OJ was always polite and charming (that doesn't absolve him from murdering people). Guess where Nicole Brown worked and where OJ met her? You guessed it: The Daisy. Nicole was a cocktail waitress at The Daisy and OJ as a patron of the club met her there. I never knew or interacted with Nicole or any of the staff of the Daisy really (just the doorman). One day Nicole was a waitress serving OJ drinks and a year or so later she was coming into the club wearing a mink coat with OJ on her arm. That was before the whole animal rights PETA movement and LA was glamorous in the 80s and women wore minks in winter (probably more for flash than to keep warm. It is LA after all and only gets so cold).

New Years Eve 1983 a very attractive Persian women (I still remember her name; Mitra) who's BMW I parked took my arm and said "you're coming with me" and took me in The Daisy with her for NYE (the rest of the valets could handle the last stragglers coming in and I came back to return cars well past midnight when people were leaving and the valets needed help). The Daisy doorman and management didn't notice or care I entered the club bc I was with one of their customers and they weren't going to tell a customer who they could or couldn't be with. OJ did meet his future wife (who he later killed) there after all.

A very different time and LA was coming out of the 70's party scene (where it was a mixed bag of Hollywood Hills hippy casual house drug parties and a few Discos (only real Disco was Studio 54) where there was some glam chic into an entirely new more glamorous and certainly flashier across the board for everyone 1980s party scene that lasted until the end of the decade. The 1987 stock market crash and recession that followed a few years later were certainly causes of the party ending. But the REAL CAUSE that killed the LA nightlife scene was the Rodney King Riots when the city had a curfew and people on the Westside were worried the ghetto thugs would make their way over and loot and pillage everything west of Robertson Blvd. People went home after work, locked their doors, and didn't go out. The 90s recession sealed the deal that the go-go glam 80s party days were over.

Unknown said...

Wow I digressed from Jennifer Jones. I never heard any mention of the Manson family. Were it to be true it isn't something her mom would mention that's for sure. You might be confusing ANGELA LANSBURY's daughter Deidre Shaw with Mary. Landsbury's daughter WAS quite heavily involved in the Manson family drug and sex cult. It certainly is POSSIBLE that Mary also was bc drugs were a major force for Manson and a celebrity kid with money is a magnet to drugs (to this day let alone then). SusyQ2 here who roomed with her in boarding school said Mary was fairly clean THEN. A lot can change and with drugs; one day you're clean, the next day you're on them and there's no turning back. I did know that Mary got into drugs (she may have been clean in high school but as I said that can change with the puff of one joint). Lansbury's daughter Deidre were the same age and both celebrity kids they certainly could have been friends doing drugs together. Deidre was into Heroin. I never heard it but it makes sense and fits IF Mary knew Deidre Shaw that they both partied and romped in a Manson sex orgy party. There were actual celebrities that did in addition to Dennis Wilson of the Beach Boys.




Unknown said...

This is The Daisy in American Gigolo in Richard Gere's first starring role (it was still The Daisy until in closed in 1989 and the owner died a year later. LOL oopsie this has nothing to do with Jennifer Jones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRwiGgbaM84

The Raving Queen said...


Unknown,

What a lot of info you threw out,
but fascinating. I am still reeling
from Mary being involved with the
whole Manson thing, and want to
know more. Never knew Lansbury's
daughter was into that, too, though
it does not surprise me. I know her
children both had drug problems.
And Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys?
Huh?

Are these names documented anywhere,
in books, like "Helter Skelter." Or
is it all speculation?

I always heard Mary was unhappy
and depressed.

If you find out more, let me know!

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

I said DENNIS Wilson, NOT Brian Wilson. Where did you get Brian Wilson from???? Mike Love (lead singer of BB) went to a Manson sex drug party or 2 but it was mainly DENNIS Wilson. Documented fact. Search it. I suggest you read Helter Skelter. If you have to ask if it's documented "anywhere" then you have no idea. You didn't bother to search the internet before asking? Dennis Wilson / Manson Family is SO WELL DOCUMENTED I don't know what to say. EVERYONE knows this. Except you evidently. You didn't bother to internet search "Dennis Wilson and Manson"?

I was VERY CLEAR: it is UNKNOWN if Mary Selznik was involved with the Mansons. UNKNOWN. Just bc someone posted on a 'blog" I heard and this person isn't even in Los Angeles, tied to it's history, or present in any of it doesn't remotely make it a real fact. I don't appreciated a false/unknown rumor posted, then repeated and eventually the uneducated and uninformed think its true. This is what Democrats and liberals do. So there is nothing to base Mary was involved. You asking if Dennis Wilson / Manson is "documented anywhere or just speculation" tells me you have no idea. What you are saying and whomever suggested Mary was involved with Manson is speculation.


Again search the internet for what I said INCLUDING Angela Lansbury's daughter. Mary was dead by over a decade when I worked for Jennifer Jones. You can check the dates yourself that Mary and Diedre Shaw are/were the same age. Both big Hollywood Golden Age actress' children, both same age, both same town, both into heavy drugs: so POSSIBLE they knew each other bc Hollywood children are friends with other Hollywood children. One can draw a conclusion (though it doesn't make it fact) that Diedre took Mary to a Manson drug party in the late 60s. The ONLY way to find out is LEGITIMATE investigative research by asking Diedre. I could in theory try this myself (as I know where to find her, not far from me at all (within 15 minutes). However I'm not certain how enthusiastic she would be to discuss that dark aspect of her past. Now I'm curious myself. I could simply ask "did you know Mary?" and then that would be somewhat conclusive.

Clearly Mary was unhappy and depressed. She jumped off a building after all. Happy people generally don't do this. Where did you "hear Mary was unhappy and depressed". Where exactly did you hear this?

Time for you to do some homework: 1) read Helter Skelter and 2) search the internet for what I suggested including Lansbury's daughter and Manson. Wikipedia etc.

I'm glad I kept myself unknown here. This is beginning to feel like amateur night.

The Raving Queen said...


Unknown,

Your decision to remain
unidentified works no hardship
on mw. Fine.

I simply confused Dennis with
Brian. No big deal. As for Mary,
in the book "Portrait Of Jennifer," it
talks about her unhappiness and suicide,
No Manson connection, though.

I knew Lansbury's kids had drug problems,
but that was it. I will look into that.

And you are right; I should read "Helter
Skelter," but the thought of doing so still
scares me. And I don't scare easily.

Meanwhile, darling, get off this liberal,
Democratic rant you are on, and use your time
wisely to go to some drag party as Elizabeth
Short, Betty Paige, or Lisabeth Scott!!!!!!!!!!!


Unknown said...

When you said "I heard" that IMPLIES you actually heard something as if you had inside knowledge (which I do). But you read it in a book. Wouldn't it have been better to say "in the book Portrait of Jennifer Mary's unhappiness and suicide is discussed". But you went for self aggrandizement. "I HEARD" lol. You didn't legitimately hear anything, you read in a book, which actually is a credible possibility and source. Far easier to do it that way (the truth) vs "I heard" (self-importance purposes). This is how mountains are created out of molehills and bogus rumors begin.

I can't help myself bc its irresponsible to make stuff up about people. Lansbury's kids certainly had big drug problems. Nothing new or important to Hollywood children there. BUT it is very noteworthy her daughter was well associated with the Manson family.

Sounds like you scare quite very easily. Many people claim they "don't scare easily" with nothing to back that up and do scare easily. Read Helter Skelter and you will get a flavor for that era and Los Angeles.

No idea what a drag party is. Clearly your scene, not mine.

Julie said...

Quit being so mean......life is too short

The Raving Queen said...


Thanks for the support, Julie.

The Raving Queen said...


Unknown,

I am still on the fence about
"Helter Skelter." But I am not
through yet, so there is a chance
I could read it. If so, I will
post it on here.

I think you could benefit from
a good dose of Jennifer Jones--
namely the film in which she stunned
the world--"The Song Of Bernadette!"

And I know you know what a drag party
is, Miss Roundheels!

Unknown said...

Don't tell me what I know and don't know. I can tell you bc you've proven your typical queen wanting to be important and famous "I heard". I'm quite familiar with all of JJ films. No idea what miss roundheels is. How creepy and bizarre. LOL another liberal Julie on here who thinks I'm mean for stating fact and take umbrage (look it up) at rumors and lies said about people no longer here to refute. I'm not being mean, I'm being truthful. Well for such a brave "I don't scare easily" queen perhaps start with this article from 10 months ago. You can learn the Beach Boys (really Dennis Wilson) / Manson association. You can also draw how many people in that era were associated with Manson. This person is one of them. I may go ask Diedre (Lansbury's daughter myself if she was friends with Mary). Not sure what I will do with that information, probably not share it here bc more false rumors will be created and I have my loyalty to Jennifer Jones.

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2017/10/31/mansons-youngest-follower-tells-all-claims-dennis-wilson-tried-to-mold-cult-leader-into-rock-star.html

Sweet Serenity said...

Tragic no matter what chair sitting in. Mary conceived from a union of two unstable people. David O had mental health issues. This fact, Compared with JJ mental illness not surprising mix in drugs and alcohol disaster waiting to happen Sweet Mary.. Gone not forgotten. Beautiful young lady.

Unknown said...

Very tragic bc it's rarely the child's fault. Actors are highly narcissistic self-absorbed insecure nut cases. Who marries that? One in the same. David O. Selznik had all kinds of issues (I'm sure that's out there on the internet). Also those famous parents were absentee parents focusing on themselves, not their child. Especially in that era. For example take adored by many, including the "spiritual" goofball we think we are perfect bc we claim to be metaphysical crowd Shirley MacLaine. Shirley was possibly one of the worst mothers ever. A total absentee mother to her only daughter. She could have cared less about her bc "I have my career to focus on!" However nothing takes the cake of Mommie Dearest: Joan Crawford. No need to go into that as that story is well documented. Even Paul Newman's son committed suicide.

Sweet Serenity said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Raving Queen said...


Sweet Serenity,

You hit it perfectly.
The combo of Seklznick and Jones
did not make for happiness for Mary.
My heart goes out to her.

The Raving Queen said...


Unknown,

Who the hell are you to question my
loyalty to Jennifer Jones????? And
I dare you to ask Lassbury's daughter--
if I even believe you can gain access to
her--and then spill it, here! I have
certainly known about Joan and even
Shirley. Davis was not exactly a model
mom.

However Paul Newman's son suicide--
that was a surprise, or I forgot.
When and why did it happen.

And I don't scare easily. I deal
with you, don't I, lamb chop?

Sweet Serenity said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sweet Serenity said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sweet Serenity said...

Horrible comment! Mary was lovely.

Unknown said...

Mary was lovely I'm sure. Paul Newman's son was a good looking guy. But there is no correlation to looks and drugs. The common theme is celebrity parent(s).

The Raving Queen said...


Sweet Serenity,

Mary was lovely, but no
match for being as stunning as
her mother. It had to have been'
tough for her!

Sweet Serenity said...

Far up above this topic *Raving Queen* made a comment saying: Mary couldn't compare to her Mother's beauty. I responded. I never thought JJ was the beauty some seem to think.

Sweet Serenity said...

Stop! Please Stop!

The Raving Queen said...


When I first posted the pic
of Mary, I was amazed to see how
attractive she was. I had seen some
childhood pics, so she grew into
herself. But she certainly was no
match for the beauty of her mother.

Imagine being Audrey Hepburn's daughter.
Or Grace Kelly's! Same thing!

Sweet Serenity said...

I don't agree with your opinion. Do you have a problem with respecting different opinions than yours? Seems to me you do.

The Raving Queen said...


Sweet Serenity,

Actually I have no problems with
different opinions. In your
earlier comment, I was unclear
to whom you were directing.

I make sure to answer all
reader comments.

Sweet Serenity said...

You are the one who made a point of looks regarding Mary's unhappiness not looking like JJ is Pure speculation on your part.
She was attractive. Forever 21- Rip Mary.

The Raving Queen said...


Sweet Seerenity,,

Mary was attractive, and may
she rest in peace. But I still
stand by what I say. Let's just
agree to disagree!

Sweet Serenity said...

Never expected you would agree with me. Shared my opinion. What bothered me was..
Assuming Mary was devastated living with a great beauty as her Mother. There is no way you can say. Assuming on your part.Tacky to the deceased.

The Raving Queen said...


I would never be tacky to
one whose death was so tragic.

Actually, if you read the Jones
bios--"Star-Crossed" by Beverly
Linet, or "Portrait Of Jennifer,"
by Edward Epstein, there is a hint
in both of Mary's unhappiness, and
that being one of--but not all--
the reasons. Just saying.

Sweet Serenity said...

Because someone writes a book makes it factual. Think not. Mary was depressed. Both Parents experienced mental illness. Throw drugs and alcohol in the mix. Disaster waiting to happen.

The Raving Queen said...


I grant you most that you
maintain is correct. Even
the material in a book being
questionable. But, recalling
how beautiful Jones was, it
makes sense, especially since
Mary was a young girl/woman,
the difference in looks would
be a key component of
the depression. Not THE issue,
of course, but one!

Unknown said...

I have an opinion. I heard Selznik was a preditor to aspiring actresses. He'd lock em in his office for sex in exchange for stardom.
This is a sin that, in a way, destroyed young women.
The bible says that sin is passed to the sinners kids.
And so his daughter was taken at early womanhood, like his victims.
I'm assuming he didn't ask sweet Jesus for forgivness.

Sweet Serenity said...

Selznick and Jones two very sick people. Who never should have had children. Not surprised hearing he was a predator. Who knows might have abused Mary. We will never know. Thanks for the update.

The Raving Queen said...


Unknown,

You are correct in saying Selznick was
a predator. Joan Fontaine has confirmed
that.

But to blame Mary Jennifer for her father's
sins seems inappropriate. She had problems
that may have come, genetically, from the
parents, but, in the end it was her decision
to end her life. Neither parents drove her
consciously to it.

The Raving Queen said...


Sweet Serenity,

I agree Jones may not have been the best
mother, and should not have had children.
As for Selznick abusing her, I think that
would have come out, by now. He doted
on that child. I will grant you this--
considering the crowd they ran with,
some adult in their group might have
abused Mary. So far, it has never been proven.

Sweet Serenity said...

To unknown person where did I blame Mary? No where did I say that.

Sweet Serenity said...

My Grandfather adored me and also sexually abused me. Believe Selznick probably did abuse Mary. As for her Mother Jennifer from what I've read she was traveling alot as well having affairs. Hardly showed herself until later in the day. The household was a train reck epic proportions.

The Raving Queen said...


Sweet Serenity,
I am so sorry about what happened
to you; thanks for sharing. And I
don't see you blaming Mary anywhere.
Mary was born into what she was,
and a combination of things, including
her parents, did a number on her,
leading to her problems, and, ultimately,
the tragic solution she sought.

Sweet Serenity said...

No problem. Ignore the troll. Your summary on Mary's life well said.

The Raving Queen said...


Sweet Serenity,
Thanks for your kind words.
Suicide gets under my skin.
I knew several people who did it.
Each still haunts me.

Sweet Serenity said...

The same for me. I often think of Mary. Not knowing her personally can only imagine the pain she felt. My hope is she's in a peaceful place.

Rock N. Roll said...

I knew Mary Jennifer briefly in the 60’s as kids although I am about 5 years younger. I was very sad to hear of her passing. My family was close to her brother as well.

Unknown said...

who was her brother? Half brother perhaps but not the same mother. Selzniks son?

Unknown said...

Raving Queen "you think that would have come out"??? how. what you think has no relevance to reality. How would it have come out? Though these are big names, not big enough for anyone to care now or be a whistleblower. you realize these players Selznik and Jones are relatively unknown to people today. This chat you created are pretty much the only people who are discussing it. It only recently came out about Bill Cosby, Wienstein etc bc people are alive. ALL THE players we're discussing are dead. Who is around to 'reveal'. ALL these old jew producers are perverts and pedofiles. its the HISTORY of Hollywood. These old jew producers are monsters. Read about Marilyn Monroe. She stooped to screwing anything and everything to attain her fame and we know the price she paid.

95% of celeb kids are idiots and losers. Look at the news today of the idiot Hollywood kids and their scum parents briberys to get them into college. Hopefully they all go to jail. They are criminals.

The Raving Queen said...


Unknown,

Mary had four half brothers.
Selznick's two sons, Jeffrey and Daniel.
And Jennifer's two boys by Robert Walker,
one of whom was Robert Walker, Jr.

The Raving Queen said...


Unknown,

Nice spelling of pedophile. That
is the correct spelling.

Listen, I am not sure what your agenda
is. I agree the casting couch routine
has been around since Hollywood. Jones
was part of it. BUT, until conclusive proof,
it cannot be said, as some maintain, that Mary
was sexually abused by her father.

As for people not knowing who these folk are
today, well that is THEIR fault. They are
simply not as brilliant as I!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers, darling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sweet Serenity said...

No one knows what really happened. The only thing we know for sure is Mary killed herself. May she rest in peace. I often think of her, and her picture haunts me. Sad ending, To a young life.

The Raving Queen said...


Sweet Serenity,

I agree with you. And I
hope Mary is at peace.

I also know the pain of suicide.
I lost a good friend 30 years ago
to that. It still haunts me.

Sweet Serenity said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sweet Serenity said...

Sorry for your loss.

The Raving Queen said...


Sweet Serenity,

Thanks so much for your kind words.
The 30th Anniversary is actually this
August 12. My memory of it all is
still so clear.

Unknown said...

Yes I know Robert Walker jr. but his association with Mary was non-existent. Robert and Mary never lived in the same house. Robert was off in an east coast boarding school long by the time Mary was born. Sure he met her but really the relationship was more like a distant cousin at best. Mary grew up alone essentially an only child.

Unknown said...

the Pedofile spelling police to ensure that is correct done by homo pedofiles

Unknown said...

great keep your personal business and therapy on your own time. don't change the narrative of this site to your angst on suicide. you said it once and that is enough

Sweet Serenity said...

The Raving Queen. Do you know if Mary ever acted? See nothing wrong with sharing your experiences. I and others enjoy reading this thread. Glad you still come back.

Unknown said...

thank you. I don't believe Mary ever acted in anything. She may have taken a few acting classes but that's about it. She killed herself at age 21. Most these celebrity kids have absentee parents. Check out Shirley MacLaine's daughter (Sachi Parker). She's not dead but sorta similar story of absentee parents. Actors are incredibly self-absorbed people. They couldn't care less about anything other than themselves. Rare is the suicide teen coming from a happy family. This is a pretty good bio of Jennifer Jones.

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/18/movies/18jones.html

Sweet Serenity said...

Norma Shearer one of my favorite actresses. From all accounts after Irving Thalberg died she remarried Martin Arrouge little time for her children.The children grew up living productive lives.

The Raving Queen said...

Unknown,

All you say is true, but
the original question was the
number of brothers May had. So
RWJr. would count among those!

The Raving Queen said...


Sweet Serenity,

I never knew Norma remarried after Thalberg.
Till his death, she was the First Lady Of MGM.
Love her in "The Women."

The Raving Queen said...


Sweet Serenity,

As far as I know Mary never acted.
She studied some, like everyone else,
but I don't think she made in to stage,
TV, or film. If unknown footage should
exist, I would love to look at it!

The Raving Queen said...


Unknown,

Dear, I will answer the questions on here.
You are right about actors being self absorbed--
don't I know it, darling?--but you are not
so bad in that department, yourself, darling!!!!!!!!!!!

Ellymc said...

I feel terrible reading these Comments. It's possible *I* am the source of the confusion about alleged links with the Manson Family. In August 2017 so posted a review of Emma Cline's novel The Girls on my blog site. I was at pains to point out The Girls is a fiction, and that while the backdrop is a cult not unlike Hanson's, it is not Cline's project to re-tell the story of the Manson murders. Instead, she's concerned to explore, through fiction, female pubescent sexuality and identity formation. She does this from the first-person POV of a character she calls Evie a 14 y.o. child of Hollywood, whose family wealth is based on a successful businessman father and a movie star grandmother. Evie has lived a childhood of great material privilege but emotional neglect, on the fringes of celebrity.

There are elements of Evie's background that relate to Cline's own history. Reading The Girls, I recalled Mary Jennifer Selznick's death and thought Evie bore comparison with Mary Jennifer, too. I googled to refresh my memories of what I'd read about Mary Jennifer and found an article that mentioned links to the Manson Family, which seemed to affirm what I thought I remembered. I included a paragraph in my review of The Girls that suggested the character of Evie in The Girls might have drawn on Mary Jennifer.

I will now amend my blog, as I think it's likely I conflated what I'd previously read about Angela Lansbury's daughter with what I'd read many years ago about Mary Jennifer, then had that distorted memory confirmed when I found the googled Manson reference.

With the internet and social media, it's hard to put the genie back in the bottle once it's out. Sincerest apologies.

The Raving Queen said...


Ellyme,

I read "The Girls" when it came out,
and never thought of Mary Jennifer. I
had heard things about Angela Lansbury's
daughter, so I think you are correct
on that,

Thanks for your comments. It gives us
all much to think about!

Unknown said...


Well...my ex husband was Mary Jennifer's boyfriend the year she took her life. He knew them all...grew up in Beverly Hills; the whole nine yards. He said Mary Jennifer was always very depressed, envious of her mother and had tried to become an actress.
He never mentioned the Manson family...so that's garbage. He was an amazing photographer and had taken several pictures of Mary Jennifer. She was nice looking but more average than awesome. He did mention that the two Jennifers were rivals and that Mary Jennifer "hated" her mother. His words, not mine. Most of his friends had issues. It seems you cannot grow up with a distorted sense of reality and then be expected to function in the real world. They were all very grandiose yet insecure. Mary Jennifer had mental illness...probably untreated bipolar disorder and no foundation to help her stay grounded.

Unknown said...

wow! This is a great insight! As I wrote the Manson thing is total garbage. There is so much crap of people 50 years later telling made up stories how they were 'almost there' at the Tate House etc. and how everyone and everything was tied to them. There was no association of MJ to manson. Wow so MJ was always very depressed and jealous of her own mother - just wow. Agree MJ was ok, average, not awesome, which is fine, just not for Hollywood. Actresses are incredibly selfish people. They don't care about their kids or spend time with them (see Shirley Maclaine and her daughter). Powerful words "MJ HATED her mother!" She clearly did and wasn't happy to commit suicide at 22 you can't be a happy camper. And the 70s the drugs these hollywood brats must have done (same as today. nothing changes). very well said 'you can't grow up with a distorted reality and be expected to function in the real world'. MJ killed herself at 22 so may as well be a teen suicide. All that money and resources yet depressed.

The Raving Queen said...

Unknown,

I had heard over time stories of how
unhappy MJ was. Hard when you have
a mother like that to compare yourself
to. But why would Jennifer Jones consider
her daughter a rival? What was that about?
I agree despite the age, it could almost
be labeled a teen suicide. Sad, all
around!

The Raving Queen said...


Unknown,
I agree with you that MJ did
not get the help she needed.
Her sad story demonstrates that
being a child of celebrity can
have its disadvantages, and that
some couples are better off not
having children!

Sweet Serenity said...

Looking at JJ relationship with her sons speaks volumes.
I'm reminded of Norma Shearer and her children Hollywood celebrities often are nothing like the propaganda media shares. I'm continually fascinated with MJ and her shirt life probably because born in the same time.

The Raving Queen said...


Sweet Serenity,
We must be around the same age,
because Mary Jennifer was the same
as mine. For rough celebirty
childhoods, read Brooke Hayward
and Susan Strasberg's bios. And
they did not have it nearly as
rough as Mary Jennifer. Susan
did end, tragically,though.

Julie said...

Merry Christmas Raving Queen and may God bless you!!!!!! Julie

The Raving Queen said...


Julie,
Thank you so much, and the same to you!
Here is to a better 2021!

The Raving Queen said...

Unknown,

I cannot be sure if MJ was on drugs.
She was seeing a therapist, so she
might have been taking meds at said
recommendation. I had always heard
the building she jumped from was
the one that housed the therapist's
office.

Granted, she was no knockout. But she
was OK enoough, and might have had a
promising future away from the business.
Alas, she did not stick around long
enough to find out!

Bob123 said...

An interesting read and comments. Mental health issues plagued the Selznick family. Both of David's brothers, Howard and Myron, who was the leading "talent agent" of his time had serious issues. As for, Myron's daughter, Joan. From David Thompson's biography of David Selznick and its harrowing epilogue.


"ON MARCH 28, 1989, Myron Selznick’s daughter, Joan, was found dead in her small house on top of the cliffs at Laguna Beach in California. She was fifty-eight, she lived alone, and it was believed that she had not been out of the house in over a decade. On the ground floor of the house there was trash so deep it came up to thigh level: it consisted of papers, books, unopened mail, diaries, checks, clothes, old food, vodka bottles, pictures, photographs, and childhood toys. In an upstairs room she kept the still tidy files of the Myron Selznick Agency."

Sweet Serenity said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sweet Serenity said...

Interesting not surprising family history of mental illness. Thank you for sharing this miss the conversation in the blog. Hopefully everyone is doing well.

The Raving Queen said...

Sweet Serenity,
Yes, everyone here is doing well. What a huge amount
of mental illness on the Selznick side.

The Raving Queen said...

Bob 123,
Thanks for sharing. I had no idea Myron had such problems, and what did Howard do? He is the least known Selznick. So sad about Myron's daughter; ironic both had daughters they lost to suicide. Fame demands a high price. Is it worth it?