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Thursday, March 1, 2012

Girls, What More Can Be Said????????????????



Yes, darlings, how much more can be said on and about that scumbag and Family Annihilator, John Emil List???????

Apparently plenty, for, after reading the second book on the case, "Death Sentence--The Inside Story Of The John List Murders" by Joe Sharkey, I had a better understanding of List as a contemptible piece of crap, and more insight into what instigated his heinous decision to, on November 9, 1971, end the lives of his family in Westfield, New Jersey--wife Helen, mother Alma, and children Patty, John, Jr. and Frederick.

The one thing the book does NOT do, which I so hoped it would, was indicate what happened, in the intervening years, to List's second wife, and essentially sixth victim, Delores Miller Clark. Under false pretenses of marrying a man named Robert P. Clark, Delores lived with this man for several years, until he was apprehended in 1989. She is understandably shocked and traumatized, and one instantly sympathizes with her, especially, as the media bores in on her, her wish to be left alone, as it was misfortune, not her fault, that she is swept into a media-centric event.

After List was extradited to New Jersey, it is made clear that Delores sold the condo they had, and moved elsewhere, alone. But the book does not indicate whether or not she filed for divorce from List, or if he did her. Indications are she never visited him during his years in prison, and up to his death. She was younger than List, so she could still be alive today, but I have a feeling to this day this is something she cannot talk about, and so she will hide from those who inquire. But it is a piece of the John List puzzle that remains unsolved.

The other person I feel enormously sorry for is Ed Illiano, who ran the drama workshop in Westfield that Patty List was so active in. Sharkey makes clear that, on the night of November 5, the List children were called into the kitchen by their father, and were told--I kid you not--they were going to die, soon, and had better be prepared. They were also asked if they preferred to be cremated or buried. They all said buried.

I cannot imagine what the three children must have said or done, after List left. It is clear that the two older, Patty and John Jr. fully understood their father was going to kill them all; they just did not know when. I wonder why they did not notify, say, Helen's sister, Jean Sybert, in Oklahoma, and run to she and her husband, named, interestingly enough, Gene????
Patty did try to reach out to Ed Illianno, who got that Patty was beyond teenage histrionics. But he did not believe her, because no one could conceive of such a thing. How he must live with all this to this day. My heart goes out to him.

As it does to the Children, who were innocent of any of the misfortunes of their parents' marriage. In fact, in a manner of speaking, Patty and Frederick, for their age group, were doing better than John; both worked in an insurance office downtown after school, and were bringing in income, something which List was ultimately unable to do. Not that his children were making enough to support the household. But then neither was he. And the combination of the two must have galled on him.

Up to a point and, had he committed suicide and left everyone else alive, ( and I am not condoning suicide here) one might have felt sorry for John List. Though some of the same questions asked now would still be--why didn't he seek help????
When he was finally imprisoned in Jersey, his sister-in-law, Jean Sybert, flew to see him, asking the question everyone of the day wanted to, "Why?" All she got out of him was the reply, "It was the only way."

The answer goes much deeper than that. What the scenario had going for it was the proverbial perfect storm. A man who is raised in a home of repression and Lutheran faith. Who marries a woman who ultimately deceives him, by claiming to be pregnant, when she is not. And with whom he had reservations about marrying in the first place, so now he is trapped. A society whose mores and job market is changing, which is too much for a rigid conservative like List to absorb and accept. A wife in poor health, an elderly mother, and children on the cusp of puberty, entering into a society of which he strongly disapproves. And against all this he cannot support them all.

As I said, to a point, one might have felt sorry for him. But there were other sides of him that crept out from time to time--dominance, control, the ability to casually deceive--that suggested a devil lurked beneath the surface of John List. And it was that Devil who rose to the fore, and, by perverting his religious beliefs into a rational justification for his actions, John List, set about, as early as September 1971, to plan the murder of his entire family. While he felt himself a failure, there was this egotistical side who also felt the family was excess baggage that, were he free, he might have a chance at a second life. And this was the single motivating factor in John List's actions. As one close to the case stated, "He knew doctrine, but he did not know God." Exactly.

When these sides are held together, it is impossible to see List as anything more than a piece of contemptible scum. Even his confession was a lie; saying he shot everyone from behind, so they would not see and suffer. With the exception of daughter Patty, everyone of his victims had a final vision of the person they presumably were to trust most in the world, pointing a gun at them and firing. Young John, Jr. suspected something afoot as he walked into the house, and he and his father fought physically, with List shooting him savagely, moreso than the others, till he was dead!!!!!!!!

And still he believed, to his dying day, he did it for their good, that they would all reunite in Heaven, and he would be forgiven. I agree there may have been some kind of confrontation in the Afterlife, but I don't think forgiveness had anything to do with it!!!!!!!!

John List was a dangerously potent combination of religiosity and ego. It was OK for everyone else to die, so long as he lived. And with Ed Illiano, and, presumably, Delores, two survivors of his casualty live on.

Sharkey's book leaves no room for empathy. The portrayal of John List given here is one of cold, cruel and calculating evil. Perhaps it would have been better, had he never married or had children. Unfortunately, he did.

This scum is gone. But anyone who lived during his reign of terror will remember him for years to come. And that is not a compliment, darlings!!!!!!!!!!!!!

20 comments:

Judi said...

What a coincidence; I just re-read this book. I too wondered whatever became of Delores. Would she have become his next victim? According to the book, Delores had confided to friends that the marriage wasn't going well. List was relapsing into his old pattern of constant unemployment and living beyond his means.

Ed Illiano raised a red flag with me because, by his own admission, he and Patty spent time alone together, parked in his car. Very inappropriate behavior for a teacher, even if he was trying to help her.

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

Wow, I just watched the movie stepfather on lifetime(2009) so I wanted to see if it was a true story. And it's based on the life of john list. It took me to his criminal page. The original title with same name was released in 1987 just 2yrs before his capture. But in the movie he kill the nosy neighbor who warns his fiancé and kids that he was on Americas most wanted. Then kills the children's father. He was trying to kill off his new family in the movie. Overall was a good movie. I live in NJ and was born in 1974 two and a half yrs after this took place

Lastdays guy said...

Has anyone ever seen that 1993 TV movie Judgement Day (The John List Murders)? Robert Blake really pulled it off well.

Lastdays guy said...

List never loved anybody but himself. He was never sorry for what he did, he was only sorry for being caught.

Lastdays guy said...

As a child growing up his mother controlled him. Alma feared that John might get sick, so she watched him constantly, keeping him dressed up to stay warm and dry. He was not allowed to go out and play with the other boys. In other words, she smothered him, giving him the impression that the world beyond her was a dangerous place. For most of his childhood, he accepted this.


http://watchingrobertpickton88015.yuku.com/topic/1478/John-List#.U2LajyqF_WQ

Sundance_Rydr said...

TRUE!

Sundance_Rydr said...

TRUE!

The Raving Queen said...


Agreed, but didn't he go to college; the Army? This guy had had some exposure to the world, when young. I agree the entitlement and high expectations came from Mama, but the impulse to murder, he was wired for that. I believe if it had not happened when it did, it would have at some point. And I think if he had not been caught Delores would have been in danger. She was very lucky!

Theresa O'Keefe said...

I found your blog and comments about the John List murders. I did some further checking and came across the following information that you might find interesting (I have never read any of the books on this man or the murders). I just heard about this person and the murderers through an episode of Forensic Files. Anyway, here is the link to the story I found (it gives more details than the TV show):

http://wetbin.com/the-forgotten-where-is-brenda-the-only-surviving-victim-in-the-john-list-saga/

The Raving Queen said...


Thanks so much, Theresa! I will be sure to check it out!

Aileen said...

I grew up in Westfield - we moved to town 4 years after this happened and to this day it's talked about. You know what the saddest thing about all of it is --- the chandelier in the ballroom was Tiffany glass -- all of the financial problems would have been solved if they'd known that.

The Raving Queen said...


Aileen,

I grew up South of Westfield, but
had a tentative knowledge of it. We
used to go to movies at the Rialto,
when big movies, like "The Sound Of
Music," or "Gone With The Wind," played
there.

I have no doubt it is still talked about.
And I am sure many wished it would forgotten.
But I seriously doubt it can.

Thanks for your comments!

kass said...

In one of the John Lists books that I had read and I read 3 different ones- In the beginning of one of the books- Ed Illiano has gone through the basement to see what was going on as far as hoping to find the family inside. This was the Sunday two days before the bodies were discovered and Ed came back again with Barbara. It said that he crept up the stairs (he was alone) and went into the ballroom and discovered the music playing and the dead bodies on the floor. He was so shocked that he ran out of the house and into his car and was so upset and in disbelief that he could not report what he saw that night. I am wondering if this true. If so I would not have been able to focus for the next two days on anything after what I had just witnessed. I definatly could not have waited two days to wonder if what I saw was true and come back to the scene of the crime again to make sure what I saw was real. Did this really happen?

The Raving Queen said...


Ed was a brave and good hearted soul.
I wonder if he is still alive? Would I
love to talk to him. By the way,
what John List books have you
read. I think I have read two, I
would like to read the missing one.
Thanks for dropping by, and sharing!

Anonymous said...

Jumping in a little later here.... I live two towns over from Westfield and it certainly is still talked about today. My friend's father was one of the investigators on the case. I just read this book and it makes me think John List more vile and disgusting a human being than ever before.

I agree that Delores Miller Clark was also a victim. She passed in 2017. She and List had been divorced, initiated by her shortly after his trial and conviction. I too feel that Ed Illiano was a victim. Here was a teenage girl complaining that her father was going to kill her and her siblings. I often wonder if I would have done anything or if, like him, I would have written it off as a teenage girl's histrionics. And think about this....if he did notify, say, school officials or the police, John List would have said they were all crazy and of course he never would consider committing such a heinous act, being the upright, pious, religious man he was. But who knows? And that is what Mr. Illiano has had to deal with all these years. It must be torture.

My friend's father kept a large scrapbook on all his files and newspaper clippings of the List case from the time of the murders until his conviction. It was super interesting to read. John List was a narcissistic and egocentric, yet I do not consider him a psychopath. He knew what he was doing, he knew he was murdering his family to move away and have a "clean start" for himself. His total and complete lack of guilt and remorse is still shocking to me.

The Raving Queen said...


Tracy 1970,

Thanks for your interesting
share. I cannot agree with
you more. List was a narcissist,
and I am with you that Delores and
Ed were also victims. To have to
live with those memories.....

List's daughter, Patty, and I would
have been the same age. It saddens
me she was cheated out of a chance at life
A life that would have improved had she
gotten away from him.

Again, thank you. I am sure it is still
talked about in and around Westfield. I
was in high school in Highland Park, south
of Westfield, and recall it clearly!

Unknown said...

I have!!! I loved it!!

The Raving Queen said...

Unknown,

Yes, it is a fascinating
and disturbing book. Especially
having grown up in or near
the area.

Steve said...

Very sad about the second wife. Her obituary on Legacy.com is empty, and no one signed the guestbook except the funeral home.